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Re: Religious Debate

Post by Toz76 on Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:07 pm

RE Dinos: That's not possible.
RE Jesus was a real person: yes, but the records kept by his executioners make no mention of him claiming to be the son of God. To them he was just another Jewish preacher, though a rather influential one. In fact, the Bible is the only source that cites Jesus himself saying that.
RE Muhammad: That's not Islam, that's the Islamic State. Huge difference. It's the KKK of Islam.
RE Rapture: Interestingly enough, it may have been referring to the Roman Emperor Nero. Apparently, 666 is a numerical derivation of some sort on Nero's name and several other events fit as well. But it was written during his reign. In fact, it may have been a particularly edgy form of "satire"! In any case, it referred to past/present events, so it's not a prophecy.

But enough about the concrete stuff, what about the belief systems? What is your opinion on biblical passages that say that women are inferior to men, people of color are inferior to white people, and that being gay is "unnatural"?

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Re: Religious Debate

Post by Hallowed Be Thy Name on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:09 pm

Women are NOT inferior to men. However, the man IS considered the 'leader', as he was created first.

I've never ever heard that people of color are inferior to white people. Don't know where you're coming from there, Toz.

I am NOT against people being gay. However, God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. I'm not gay, so I guess you could say that I don't hold with it, but I'm not going to hit someone over the head if they are.

As for the Islamic State, I'm not talking about them. I AM talking about Muhammed.

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Re: Religious Debate

Post by Frankthetriviaman on Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:05 pm

Here's the thing about the Bible, it is NOT a history book.  It is, in essence, a story book, with reference to various historical events.  But these are no ordinary stories, they are metaphors, with another level of meaning, providing lessons that we are meant to take to heart and apply to our life.

For example, there is no way the great flood happened, it is the metaphor to this story that is important.  Is there a grain of truth to this story?  Yes; more than likely, the "Great flood" references an actual historical event that evidence has been found for.  While it was not by any means a "global flood" (you need five times as much water we have to flood the earth), more than likely, there was a large scale, cataclysmic flood in that region of the world caused by a melting glacier.

Likewise, there is no way Joshua stopped the sun; but that is not the point, the point is what is the lesson of the story, the metaphor we should take away? That is what is important.

BTW, the whole "666" thing is a myth; turns out that was a mistranslation; the actual "bad number" is 616.

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Re: Religious Debate

Post by Toz76 on Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:55 pm

Frank, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Although I don't believe in most of the events that the bible tells, the messages are usually quite valuable. Incidentally, 616 can still mean Nero through the number cipher I mentioned earlier.

D11, I have a few things to point out, though:
1) Wouldn't saying "men are the leader" sort of imply that women have to obey men? That's rather sexist...
2) I seem to recall someone mentioning that someone in the bible (Cain?) was "cursed" with being black for some sin. I could be mistaken though, but a lot of white supremists use the bible to "justify" their bigotry, so there has to be something... then again, they also made up a ton of stuff, so maybe not. Never mind!
3) Not being gay doesn't make you anti-gay, it just makes you straight. As for "Adam and Steve"... well, the human race would have died pretty quickly, wouldn't it? Of course he would have had to start with one man and one woman (incidentally, most scientists believe it's not possible for one man and one woman to create a sustaining population that lasts longer than a few generations, even assuming they all had impossibly long lifespans).
4) I know a few Muslims personally, and they aren't like that at all. As a matter of fact, they're quite friendly to their non-Muslim friends. You're probably thinking of the Islamic State interpretation of Islam, which, to be frank, is an absurd one.
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Re: Religious Debate

Post by Frankthetriviaman on Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:20 am

I agree.  I have studied Islam in the past, and to assume all of Islam is like ISIL is preposterous.  They are an extreme minority that just so happen to get a lot of media attention.  The fact of the matter is, Islam is a peaceful religion, just like Christianity, these men are not following Islam, they are following a twisted, distorted version of it.

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Re: Religious Debate

Post by CGT on Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:32 am

Well Muslims were crazy enough to send hate-mail to nintendo because (gasp!) some of their music was used in Ocarina Of Time's Fire Temple! Oh how dreadfully awful is that! And don't blame it on today's society overall, because this happened in 1996. And by that I'm offended, Darunia is offended, and most likely the goddesses of Hyrule were offended.
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Re: Religious Debate

Post by Hallowed Be Thy Name on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:45 am

Toz76 wrote:D11, I have a few things to point out, though:
1) Wouldn't saying "men are the leader" sort of imply that women have to obey men? That's rather sexist...
2) I seem to recall someone mentioning that someone in the bible (Cain?) was "cursed" with being black for some sin. I could be mistaken though, but a lot of white supremists use the bible to "justify" their bigotry, so there has to be something... then again, they also made up a ton of stuff, so maybe not. Never mind!
3) Not being gay doesn't make you anti-gay, it just makes you straight. As for "Adam and Steve"... well, the human race would have died pretty quickly, wouldn't it? Of course he would have had to start with one man and one woman (incidentally, most scientists believe it's not possible for one man and one woman to create a sustaining population that lasts longer than a few generations, even assuming they all had impossibly long lifespans).
4) I know a few Muslims personally, and they aren't like that at all. As a matter of fact, they're quite friendly to their non-Muslim friends. You're probably thinking of the Islamic State interpretation of Islam, which, to be frank, is an absurd one.
1. Consider it more like a woman and a man are a team. The man is the team captain, but the woman can hold off well on her own, too.
2. I've never heard that Cain was cursed with being black; he was just cursed with having to travel day after day after day after day after..
3. I myself don't know how just Adam and Eve could create an entire human race; it's possible that God created another pair after them.
4. No, I agree. Muslims are often some of the nicest people around. What I'm talking about, however, is what I learned in my history book: Muhammed went back to Medina and took over the city (killing quite a few people), and later on, he and his followers led holy wars to destroy those who didn't believe.

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Re: Religious Debate

Post by Toz76 on Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:26 pm

1) I'm still not sold on that...
2) It could just be my faulty information.
3) That would make a lot more sense, actually.
4) The Christians aren't entirely guilt-free either. Remember the Crusades? Or the witch burnings? Or the persecution of Catholics in England? The Islamic Empire, on the other hand, accepted people of all faiths (before the Christian countries up north conquered them and forced them to convert).

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Re: Religious Debate

Post by Hallowed Be Thy Name on Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:17 pm

Toz76 wrote:The Christians aren't entirely guilt-free either. Remember the Crusades? Or the witch burnings? Or the persecution of Catholics in England? The Islamic Empire, on the other hand, accepted people of all faiths (before the Christian countries up north conquered them and forced them to convert).
As I said, I'm not Catholic, I'm Protestant. The Catholics did all that. (And when you say the persecution of Catholics of England, I only know of the persecution of the Protestants by the Catholics.)

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Re: Religious Debate

Post by Frankthetriviaman on Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:27 am

It's true, the English were known for persecuting Catholics at one point in their history; it's one of the reasons they didn't get along with Ireland, if I recall correctly.

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Re: Religious Debate

Post by Toz76 on Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:17 am

As a matter of fact, the reason the Mayflower Pilgrims sailed to America in the first place was because they were Puritans who were prosecuted by the Church of England (which was Protestant). Let's be honest, no religion is free of guilt.

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Re: Religious Debate

Post by Hallowed Be Thy Name on Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:05 am

I get what you're talking about though, so there's only one thing I can say: They probably weren't real Christians. Real Christians wouldn't persecute others; the ones you're talking about are 'in name only' Christians.

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Re: Religious Debate

Post by Toz76 on Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:43 am

You can't say that someone isn't "really Christian". That's like the whole "oh, these trollsaren't real Thomas Fans" thing (to use an analogy we both will get). If you watch and like TTTE, you're a Thomas Fan, regardless of how you act. It's the same thing here. They may have a different interpretation of God, but they still believe in him.

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Re: Religious Debate

Post by Hallowed Be Thy Name on Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:03 am

They probably do believe in God, but what I mean by 'real Christian', is a person who excepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.

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Re: Religious Debate

Post by Toz76 on Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:12 am

And they did. In fact, that's why many Jews were persecuted later on- for believing in God, but not Jesus.

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Re: Religious Debate

Post by Hallowed Be Thy Name on Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:18 am

Then the only thing I can say is, they must've thought that Jesus wanted them to do so; nothing is further from that. I still doubt that they are real Christians. REAL Christians wouldn't persecute you for your faith.

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Re: Religious Debate

Post by Toz76 on Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:29 am

Technically, believing in God, and Jesus being his son, makes you Christian. Some Christians are nicer than others, of course, and some interpret the various holy texts differently, but they all still believe, and saying they don't is only going to tick then off.

Let's do an experiment: there's a group of kids in my classes (let's call them [NAME REDACTED], [NAME REMOVED], and [CENSORED], to protect their identities), who is Christian. They are also anti-gay. If I decide to say "[NAME REDACTED], [NAME REMOVED], and [CENSORED] are no longer Christian", would that make them stop worshipping God and Jesus? No. They're still Christians, no matter what you or I may say.

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Re: Religious Debate

Post by Hallowed Be Thy Name on Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:05 am

You're right there, Toz. But I find that there are two different types of Christians: The ones that do accept Jesus as Savior, and the ones that don't. There's a huge difference. Real Christians accept Jesus as Savior. Ones that don't are, in my opinion, not true Christians. An example of that would be Catholics. They were some of the first to distort the Bible to how they wanted it, and lots of people died because of that. (However, the more recent Catholics are a lot better.) Another example are Christian cults, I.E., Mormons, Christian Science, Jehovah's Witness, etc. These are NOT Christians. They are cults, albeit popular ones. They've all distorted the Bible in one way or another, so they aren't true Christians.

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Re: Religious Debate

Post by Toz76 on Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:08 pm

As Frank said earlier, the bible is open to interpretation. It hasn't been "twisted" by those groups; in fact, Catholics might say the bible was twisted by Protestants.

Also, protip: never refer to someone's religion as a "cult". People are free to believe what they wish, and just because you don't approve doesn't automatically make it something else. (As a matter of fact, I find the idea behind Christian Science to be quite appealing.)

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Re: Religious Debate

Post by Hallowed Be Thy Name on Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:36 pm

I'm not changing facts, Toz. Christian Science, Mormonism, and Jehovah's Witness ARE religions, but they are specifically called, 'Christian Cults'.

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Re: Religious Debate

Post by Frankthetriviaman on Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:07 pm

(I apologize if I sound mean or anything; but this is really how I feel about the danger of Christian science)

Christian science is a danger to society; kids with serious illness are often not given treatment they need because of the false belief that disease can be "prayed away."

I hate to be this guy, but prayer alone never takes away your problems; it can help you alleviate stress pertaining to those problems, but it will never take away those problems all together.  Only you can fix your problems, and by taking appropriate action to deal with them.

Now don't get me wrong, I am for freedom of religion, but there is a very fine line between practicing religion and endangering one's life.

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Re: Religious Debate

Post by Hallowed Be Thy Name on Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:50 pm

Frankthetriviaman wrote:(I apologize if I sound mean or anything; but this is really how I feel about the danger of Christian science)

Christian science is a danger to society; kids with serious illness are often not given treatment they need because of the false belief that disease can be "prayed away."

I hate to be this guy, but prayer alone never takes away your problems; it can help you alleviate stress pertaining to those problems, but it will never take away those problems all together.  Only you can fix your problems, and by taking appropriate action to deal with them.

Now don't get me wrong, I am for freedom of religion, but there is a very fine line between practicing religion and endangering one's life.
I agree wholeheartedly, Frank. It's bad to just believe that any illnesses that you have will go away if you pray and trust God that it will. If I were sick, I definitely would pray to God about it; however, I would ALSO go to the doctor, and let him help me out as well. Sometimes it isn't God's plan that you will live, if, for instance, it might turn someone to Him, or that it'll mean your suffering would be over, but definitely go to the doctor! It's stupidity otherwise.

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Re: Religious Debate

Post by Toz76 on Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:40 pm

Actually, the Christian Science website makes it very clear that they are not a cult. (EDIT: Didn't see your post, Frank. I have to agree, it's stupid, but it's still a religion.) Mormonism, though I strongly disagree with its anti-gay stance, is a religion, and although I don't know much about Jehovah's Witness, I know it's not a "cult".

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Re: Religious Debate

Post by Hallowed Be Thy Name on Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:13 pm

I agree with you, Toz, that it IS a religion, but it also is a Christian cult. Not a cult, a Christian cult.

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Re: Religious Debate

Post by Toz76 on Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:24 pm

I don't understand. What is a "Christian Cult"?

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Re: Religious Debate

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